tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post2611132631211377241..comments2023-12-15T02:04:08.213-08:00Comments on meat: Another farm bites the dust: postmortemBruce Kinghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/10995706761794063165noreply@blogger.comBlogger49125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-15310626470612504842012-10-02T04:32:44.552-07:002012-10-02T04:32:44.552-07:00Yep ! I love sparring. I used to study and teach A...Yep ! I love sparring. I used to study and teach American Sombo here in Pennsylvania, also studied Aiki-JuJitsu for a while before I moved due to job stuff. I do miss it, finding a quality dojo is hard now a days... Thanks for the reply Bruce.Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16948064168681062105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-16185017142929604562012-10-01T11:08:46.874-07:002012-10-01T11:08:46.874-07:00Nope. Never heard from the guy. Figured he chang...Nope. Never heard from the guy. Figured he changed his mind when his threat didn't work. <br /><br />If the best he could come up with in a discussion about farming operations is "I want to punch you" I pretty much figure that I've won the argument. <br /><br />Motivated sparring is pretty interesting; if you're interested in self defense, it's nice to find someone who really wants to attack you. good practice. <br /><br />Reality works for me. Bruce Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10995706761794063165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-44156636451851722432012-10-01T06:13:27.543-07:002012-10-01T06:13:27.543-07:00So.... did this sparring match ever happen? :)So.... did this sparring match ever happen? :)Georgehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16948064168681062105noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-62648059916262216372011-01-02T20:21:09.300-08:002011-01-02T20:21:09.300-08:00Thank you for your gracious invitation. I'm u...Thank you for your gracious invitation. I'm up for sparring sometime if you're up for standard rules in a boxing gym, or if you'd prefer more open style, come on out to the dojo I use. Send me a private email and we'll set it up. <br /><br />Not kidding. Gets tiring to spar with the same folks all the time, and you sound like you're motivated. Come teach me some manners, ok?Bruce Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10995706761794063165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-57128130981213846782011-01-02T17:26:10.887-08:002011-01-02T17:26:10.887-08:00Bruce, if you endeavor to entertain, how about you...Bruce, if you endeavor to entertain, how about you and me in a fist fight. I'd really enjoy punching your head in and I'm just down the road a bit in Portland. You talk a lot of shit. How about backing it up. -JimAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-76787951201641180842010-12-28T13:46:14.976-08:002010-12-28T13:46:14.976-08:00Hopefully it won't undermine your farming effo...Hopefully it won't undermine your farming efforts!Steven Romerohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280714574220564899noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-15832263954706732662010-12-28T13:16:10.956-08:002010-12-28T13:16:10.956-08:00I endeavor to entertain.I endeavor to entertain.Bruce Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10995706761794063165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-81989141186494621372010-12-28T12:43:48.505-08:002010-12-28T12:43:48.505-08:00There sure is a lot of drama on this blog. I'...There sure is a lot of drama on this blog. I'm starting to like it! :)./phttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10262453535437445476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-22954416075518123912010-12-04T09:29:45.109-08:002010-12-04T09:29:45.109-08:00I have a tiny farm in the Northeast where I produc...I have a tiny farm in the Northeast where I produce most of my own meat and eggs and some vegetables; but I certainly don't consider myself a farmer in the true sense, and I know nothing about the business side of farming. I can't disagree with your post mortem, but unless you've lived there you have NO idea what CA is like. From their description I can pinpoint TLC's location within a couple of miles. I used to live there. Because there are lots of farms it seems bucolic, but it is a horrible place. The big farmers, mostly in berries, are one gang. The soil is polluted by all the chemicals they insist on using, and they do NOT have a laissez faire attitude toward small farmers; they run roughshod over them. They also run the local government and school systems. The schools are terrible, and a big part of that is keeping a large pool of poorly educated non-white people for cheap labor.<br /><br />Oppression breeds frustration and anger, and Chicano gangs run things in another way. It's not safe to walk down the street, you can get killed in a drive-by. Two children were killed this way shortly after I moved there--that was the beginning of my education as to what I'd gotten into! I also had bullets whiz over my head as I drove down the street, caught in the middle of a shootout, and witnessed two shootings. The nice ordinary people are caught in the middle of all this, just trying to get by and raise their children safely. <br /><br />Despite what you think about what they paid for land, this is the CHEAP part of the CA coast! You cannot imagine the unbelievably high price for land in the nice areas, IF it can be found. It is usually sold for housing or commercial development, a big part of the disappearing farmland problem. I don't see how any start-up small farmer can succeed in coastal CA.<br /><br />Whatever they do next, I think that before long they will be glad they moved on.Chrisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-12850184548936012542010-11-03T09:50:46.699-07:002010-11-03T09:50:46.699-07:00It's about time that somebody talks about ways...It's about time that somebody talks about ways to mix realities with idealities. Too many people are looking to be idealistic and not worrying about the realities of life. And this applies to many more situations than just farming. I have been studying and working to start my own farm, and even as a beginner in the pasture based market I am dumbfounded by the amount of complaining by some people who are failiing because of their own idealities.<br /><br />Are their other industries where people try to point fingers this much when their business fails? <br /><br />I have a lot of respect for anybody willing to take on the life style of a pasture based farmer. I respect TLC for everything they have done and the success that they did have. But, I can't help but notice their lack of self criticism in why their farm failed.jaosnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-27523993274056687382010-11-03T04:49:16.781-07:002010-11-03T04:49:16.781-07:00Diana, I think that Bruce used the initial 1/2'...Diana, I think that Bruce used the initial 1/2'/bird for simple calculations, then adjusted to triple that (1 1/2' - 3 acres total for the 2,000 birds). I suspect, however, that you'd still view this as being insufficient. I have no direct experience, in which case I'd have to hold a neutral position.<br /><br />Rebecca stated:<br /><br />"So if you can find me a 50-100 acre parcel within 2 hours of SF Bay Area for normal pasture prices ($10-100/acre/year), please pass them onto me."<br /><br />Is this sarcasm? I recently purchased property and am looking to lease back land to my farm operations. My farm will only ask for a couple of acres to start with (I am hoping that I'll end up having about 30 - 35 acres of usable land). It has to prove itself to ME before it attempts to ask for any more land! Stripping away the costs of the residence, I'm figuring that I'd have to charge my farm about $25/acre/mo just to cover the mortgage cost for each acre: the land itself came to just under $4k/acre. $25/acre/mo is pretty darn reasonable. I'm just not seeing that expecting to lease for $0.83/acre/mo to $8.33/acre/mo is realistic: any lessor would at least want to cover costs (property and or mortgage). If this is all one can afford, then clearly somewhere one's expenses are horribly high, or revenues horribly low.<br /><br />Clearly I will be subsidizing my farming operations, but... I'm not asking anyone else to subsidize them! Yes, I'll have an off-farm income- a "day job," but I think that I've got a shot at eventually dropping it, as my living expenses (mortgage payments) are fairly low (subsidized by years of frugality). I had contemplated going to school to study Ag, but figured that I'd instead use my money to purchase land and, while still having a day job, learn about farming via hands-on and hard-knocks: in essence I'm coming at farming from the opposite direction than TLC (land first, education second, vs. education first, land second).<br /><br />I'd like to see more qualified figures in all examples (such as Bruce provided). What measures should we be speaking in: density and cycle times, what else?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-25222217400366000572010-11-01T16:34:36.402-07:002010-11-01T16:34:36.402-07:00Hi Bruce,
I have about twenty chickens on about a...Hi Bruce,<br /><br />I have about twenty chickens on about a quarter of an acre, and it's not enough. <br /><br />Those that can fly over the fence to scrounge outside do, which is fine. Some of them have taken up permanent residence with the pig, which is fine.<br /><br />You're suggesting 2000 chickens in about a tenth of my chicken pen, and I'd be afraid to walk in there at that rate! There would be no place to put my feet. Half a square foot per hen sounds like what they tell us the CAFOs allow, in those horror movies about how horrible CAFOs are.<br /><br />As for profitability, at that stocking rate you'd have losses from fighting and cannibalism as the chickens don't have enough room for normal chicken social behavior.<br /><br />You have also not allowed any space for feeders, waterers, and nest boxes.Diana Freybergernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-4384035700912400032010-11-01T10:58:31.659-07:002010-11-01T10:58:31.659-07:00I am amazed you guys make a profit at those wester...I am amazed you guys make a profit at those western washington rents and prices. You need to inherit or make money elsewhere in order to afford to buy something in the first place. Out here (SW France) things are, surprisingly, much cheaper. <br /><br />brentcu.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-7831118446750136432010-11-01T08:37:45.835-07:002010-11-01T08:37:45.835-07:00I agree, the business model they had or thought th...I agree, the business model they had or thought they had was severely flawed. The prices were inflated, the land extortionately high, (but they KNEW the rent cost when going into the lease or should have). When the current model of what you're doing in business ISN'T working- then you have to take a long hard look and make the necessary changes. Prices are generally number one if you have the quality, then your expenses have to be examined. It's actually very simple when boiled down to the basics. Before a new or home business is proven to be able to provide the full incomes (including insurances and benefits that would normally be obtained "off-farm") one or both partners MUST NOT quit their day job! VERY idealistic and flawed logic to think that you will just grow a bunch of animals, process and sell them without having first done your "due diligence". <br />They may have had all the apprenticeships in the world working on a farm- NOW they need the same time in forming and running a PROFITABLE BUSINESS- period. Good Review, BruceAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-13352647154919678262010-10-31T22:45:35.949-07:002010-10-31T22:45:35.949-07:00Bottom line is that it is hard to have success on ...Bottom line is that it is hard to have success on rented land: your investments in the land are not yours. Their use of the land was beyond sustainability. To sustain farm land, you can put no more animals per acre than 1 cow, or 4 hogs, or 40-50 chickens. For maximum use, pigs can follow steer, and chickens can follow pigs. This is NOT to say that that 1 acre can sustain 1 cow, 4 pigs, and 40 chickens...you need 3 acres to do that!SeattleJohnnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-31821311542501646222010-10-31T12:31:20.429-07:002010-10-31T12:31:20.429-07:00I just stumbled across this and know nothing about...I just stumbled across this and know nothing about business, but I still know that 1/2 square foot per chicken is unacceptable. For comparison - taking into account a healthy adult male's height and weight - imagine living your entire life in a 25 square foot room with 10 or 15 other people. Imagine eating, sleeping, breathing, defecating, establishing social orders and relationships (yes, chickens do that), with less than 3 square feet of space in which to position yourself. Imagine the toll it would take on your mental and physical health.<br /><br />When humans have been placed under similar conditions, we have decried it as inhumane, cruel, torturous, and barbaric. Why is it acceptable to treat animals in such a fashion and justify it as fiscally necessary?<br /><br />I respect Rebecca's consistent efforts to maintain the good treatment of animals. No, it is not good or easy business. But she has been making an effort to overcome something that valuing (above all else) financial gain has resulted in - the abuse and torture of animals.<br /><br />Please don't view this comment as an uneducated blurb - one does not need to have operated a farm to understand that living creatures cannot be happy or healthy when they live in overcrowded conditions (and as for chickens specifically, yes - I have owned and raised chickens, though not for profit, and having observed their behavior, it is clear that chickens do need personal space, just as humans and many other animals do).<br /><br />Please also do not view this as an attack on your personal character. My invitation to imagine your life in similar conditions is meant to educate, not to passive-aggressively condemn. Just because Rebecca chose the ethical treatment of the animals we owe our dinners to over a sustainable business model does not make her stupid or shortsighted. I highly suggest (especially before making such personal comments on her intelligence in a public medium) that you take a closer look at her values and goals as a farmer and accept that they are indeed valid, although they may not be similar to yours. Can't we all just get along - or at least agree to disagree without using personal attacks, as more than half of the commenters seem to have done?<br /><br />Having said all of that, I am happy to have found this blog as a source of locally grown meat in Washington state. Please keep it going, and I will be continuing to read new and archived posts to learn more about the world of farming and business.Kelseyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00544518612807483400noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-61273424174709668362010-10-31T01:50:20.463-07:002010-10-31T01:50:20.463-07:00One thing to note about NaturesHarmony is at minut...One thing to note about NaturesHarmony is at minute 22 in that interview, paraphrased: <br /><br />"if you have a formula to be a successful farmer, they had it, well educated, experience on farms, anything i would say to start a farm they had it and couldn't make it work"... They didn't have a wheelbarrow of money. <br /><br />Tim made quite a bit of money and has a substantial off-farm income. His recipe for farming is a pretty common story: Make a lot of money somewhere else, and then start a farm.<br /><br />I'll be honest. sometimes it takes a wheelbarrow of money to make things work. You have to have enough money to be able to survive the lumps.Bruce Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10995706761794063165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-27457013539671302102010-10-31T01:46:29.075-07:002010-10-31T01:46:29.075-07:00Rebecca states in her interview that she had 2,000...Rebecca states in her interview that she had 2,000 laying hens at the end.<br /><br />Giving each hen a 1/2 square foot of grass per day that's 1,000 square feet a day. An acre is 43600 square feet, which means that each acre gives you 43 days of rotation for all 2,000 hens. So I'll revise my estimate of land needs for the hens to 3 acres giving a 4 month rest after grazing.Bruce Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10995706761794063165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-87245811676511712232010-10-31T00:31:55.749-07:002010-10-31T00:31:55.749-07:00Across: I didn't see that natures harmony thi...Across: I didn't see that natures harmony thing; thanks for the pointer. <br /><br />And I'm glad you like the blog. I do my best to keep it entertaining.Bruce Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10995706761794063165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-78772574287674096102010-10-31T00:30:07.052-07:002010-10-31T00:30:07.052-07:00Rebecca: I deal with the USDA slaughter situation...Rebecca: I deal with the USDA slaughter situation each month as part of my business. I'm aware of the current system and limitations. The difference is that I'm not citing or blaming the current situation for the demise of my farm. I'm working with the hand I'm dealt. <br /> Inspected meat can be sold to resturaunts or across state lines, and you're correct, USDA slaughtered needs to be cut and wrapped in a USDA meat shop, and that is one way to do it. Another is to rent a commercial, inspected kitchen, license yourself as a food handler and sell the products you produce in the same was a resturant does. it's a heck of a lot cheaper, allows you to sell value-added products (ready-made meals, fresh sausage, ready-to-cook roasts, etc) and allows you to capture even more of your customers dollars. <br /> And there are other options, too. <br /><br />If you're serious about continuing, sure, I'll work with you on the business organization and I'm pretty sure we can reduce your need for acres (drop the beef and lamb, concentrate on pork, chicken, eggs and classes, etc) and I'm pretty sure with your customer base and general location you'll do fine. <br /> But I get that you're tired of it, and want to quit, and that's fine, too.Bruce Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10995706761794063165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-53171565129163254182010-10-31T00:22:53.381-07:002010-10-31T00:22:53.381-07:00Brentcu; I can't figure out why they needed 48...Brentcu; I can't figure out why they needed 48 acres, either. Maybe Rebecca can fill us in on how the land was used or divided. I'm figuring 2 acres for the 300 laying hens and maybe 5 acres for the pigs. If you can't afford the grazing land for the cows and sheep, drop 'em as a product, or resell someone elses, as they were doing with beef. <br /><br />As far as rates go, $100/acre/year is not the market rate in western washington; it's more like $100/MONTH/acre. Cropland is selling for $10,000 an acre in most of washington state, particularly those parcels with water rights. Assuming that you'll be able to use $500,000 worth of land for $500 a year seems... optimistic. Huge subsidy assumption there.Bruce Kinghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10995706761794063165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-43456105502084719442010-10-30T21:28:06.966-07:002010-10-30T21:28:06.966-07:00Here's an interview with TLC farm. It's de...Here's an interview with TLC farm. It's definitely worth a listen. http://www.naturesharmonyfarm.com/natures-harmony-farm-podcast/2010/10/11/farmcast-20-death-of-a-farm.html<br /><br />When I was a soldier, it always amazed me the amount of armchair generals I had tell me how they would do things. Oh, I'd go over there and blah, blah, blah. No, you'd curl up in a ball the first IED that went off. It always ticked me off. <br /><br />I'm seeing the same's true with farming. Personally, until you've tried making a profit raising livestock like Rebecca or Bruce, you really don't have a leg to stand on. If it's all so obvious, then why aren't you doing it? Not planning to do it...do it. <br /><br />Rebecca, my hat's off to you for doing all you did while carrying, having and raising a baby while on the farm. We're in that balancing act as well. It's a special type of tough.<br /><br />Bruce, I dig your blog, keep it up.Across The Creek Farmhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00286366285047303252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-15796027424651281552010-10-30T19:36:12.507-07:002010-10-30T19:36:12.507-07:00Personally I think if you had some burning desire ...Personally I think if you had some burning desire to prove your worth you should have just written a stand alone article about the challenges of small farming or thoughts to consider towards extended success to make your points and kept the other people anonymous rather than pick a fight and make it personal with these people, you come across very arrogant, sorry to say. Not that you didn't make a few good points, you did, but still I'm asking myself what were your intentions? And maybe you need to ask yourself that question. The bottom line though is they should not have been put in a position to have to defend their decision to you, especially on a public blog, that was just mean, shame on you for that.<br />shawneeShawnee, Arkansasnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-34716005979813554162010-10-30T15:59:38.016-07:002010-10-30T15:59:38.016-07:00Bruce- FYI- slaughter and butcher are two differen...Bruce- FYI- slaughter and butcher are two different things. We don't have a problem finding a USDA slaughterhouse, we have a hard time finding a USDA butcher. The mobile slaughter trailers don't do cut & wrap, so that would not solve our problem. Your ignorance on the subject is really beginning to show.<br />Also, as I mentioned above, small acreages under 10 would not work for the rotational grazing model we are doing, trying to keep our animals free of parasites and not rotting away in mud & manure. So if you can find me a 50-100 acre parcel within 2 hours of SF Bay Area for normal pasture prices ($10-100/acre/year), please pass them onto me. We are not just raising pigs & chickens but also lamb and steers, which require more acreage to be grassfed.<br />Again, I am not asking for subsidized land prices, just normal market prices. <br />To build a butcher shop, one need to first purchase the land, then build the building. So yes, here on the Central Coast of California it costs one million dollars, that is why nobody is attempting to do it.Rebecca T.http://www.honestmeat.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1842136564899097734.post-39940476261212878852010-10-30T03:43:12.552-07:002010-10-30T03:43:12.552-07:00You can not do everything correctly, work 80 hours...You can not do everything correctly, work 80 hours a week, and still fail, unless the goals or standards you set are unrealistic. Check your ego, and review your lofty standards. Better to meet 70% of your goals and profit than to meet 100% and fail. I have failed in business for these same reasons. Now I have to work for someone else so that I can save money to try again. Try to learn from your experience instead of making excuses for your failure, and you will likely succeed in your next venture.<br /><br />Also, get in touch with Mr. Jefferies. I'm pretty sure he hasn't spent a million dollars on his slaughter house.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com